Tell me about cam shafts

[djsqiigles]

Well more specifically, what are our options?

Looking to hear about others experiences with aftermarket cam shafts, I have a 1999 NB so that's more what i'd like to hear about.


What companies, prices, other parts required for install, power gained, that kinda crap, tell me bros/broetts!

http://www.netnax.net/imgs/misc/kawaii-thanx-donut1.gif

[DK Wolf]

I used to be interested in cams.. interest dropped as soon as I realize the cost vs benefit of them in a miata. It's garbage.

A lot of guys get them to sound cooler, however you will spend a good chunk of money making everything reliable, tuning, and you'll get almost nothing in power to show for it. Some of the serious guys might throw in a mild cam to move the power band a little on some FI engines.. however that can usually be achieved with tuning in itself.


You have TODA cams which are the best choice for most Miatas out here in Japistan (I've seen a few)
http://www.todaracingusa.com/catalog/pc/viewCategories.asp?idCategory=91
This is roughly what it sounds like.. brappy

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=luRiuPZJdfk

then you have the classic HKS cams which seem to be more popular stateside
http://www.vividracing.com/catalog/hks-exhaust-camshaft-256-mazda-miata-9093-p-30045.html

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mKMK09Zc3jc

Next you have the holy grail of miata racing cams in the Maruha cams (they came out with monster sizes)
http://miataroadster.com/maruha_motors/maruha_motors_camshafts/g-66153.aspx

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xLBIcb1rcQo

Theres a few other brands I might be forgetting, but these are the big three. I wouldn't really bother with other lesser known brands.

M.net guys also get custom made cams.

[Pfunk]

Maruha are actually Tomei cams, and Tomei come in a variety of flavors. http://www.tomei-p.co.jp/_2003web-catalogue/000_roadster/menu-new_product_nb8_en.html

That said, for the model I listed DK is correct in that you don't get much bang for the buck (or yen). Tomei's run ~1500$ with the SUB conversion they require and you would see 10hp or so for that without any other mods. They are not very lumpy, though, are non-interference still, and give OEM-like smooth idling, with power on top. As part of a complete, well-thought-out build, though, they are worth it, IMO.

[kung fu jesus]

Web Cam
http://www.webcamshafts.com/index_blank.html?pages/vehicle_search.html

The issues associated with aftermarket cams you may run into are based on your budget and intention. Lift and duration OK with OEM setup vrs uprated springs, retainers and shims. Streetability vs all-out performance is another consideration. You will also find a LOT of guys with cams will not disclose their specs. They have spent a lot of money to develop the power from them, so they aren't likely to give up that information readily. Cams, of course are all about airflow, so to get the most from them, there is associated headwork to have done (port, polish, matching, de-shrouding, bench flowing, etc). The cheapest way to make gains from cams is to look at what is available through interchangeability. Also, there is the VVT heads from the '01+ which have adjustability on the intake side. A VVT controller from Megasquirt is a nice, cheap standalone solution to retrofit that head onto earlier engines and chassis. I have seen and driven a VVT BP motor maximized for torque with this system and it is really pretty cool.

The best compliment to go with cams, is through the head work. You can also shave the head to increase the compression. I never changed the cams in my B6, but the headwork and compression bump made it extremely healthy.

Is this response too vague, Paul(djsquigz)?

[The Driver]

I believe that there is evidence that using a late NB intake cam on the exhaust side makes power, isn't this right?

[wannafbody]

Lots of people use the exhaust cam from a 1.8 as an intake cam and make a few HP.

[The Driver]

I believe that there is evidence that using a late NB intake cam on the exhaust side makes power, isn't this right?


Lots of people use the exhaust cam from a 1.8 as an intake cam and make a few HP.

Oh, so I had it back wards. Thanks for correcting me.

[djsqiigles]

Thanks for the answers DK and everybody.

Do most aftermarket cams require a more built head? Differnt springs and machine work? Solid lifters?

[DK Wolf]

Most cams will require hundreds in head work. They need a lot of supporting mods to function effectively. Larger cams wont be compatible with the hydraulic lifter system so you'll need to swap to solid lifters

[kung fu jesus]

Paul, your NB already has solid lifters. Switching them and the springs out depends on the lift and duration you plan to run. Most "street" cams don't. Headwork, an ECU, adjustable cams, and dyno tuning would be needed to get the most out of them. Cams can be, but aren't really, a bolt-in-and-hang-on affair. By comparison, a VVT head and controller can yield some impressive gains, especially in the area of usable torque. Should also mention, extreme cams can make it hard to pass smog.

With the NB1 engine, keeping CA regs in mind, you can get some nice bump by shaving the head, adding the MS cam, EUDM square top mani, '01 header, or JDM/EUDM OE header, and larger midpipe and exhaust.

My '99 is a CA emissions car. Simply adding an '01 header, 2.25" mid and RB exhaust uncorked it considerably.

friend of mine in ATL did an NB1 engine swap in an NA. Using a Mega squirt + square top + header/exhaust, he dynoed 140-145hp.

[djsqiigles]

yeah I was thinking pretty much of doing all of that same crap. Thanks Kungfu you rule.

[DK Wolf]

Paul, your NB already has solid lifters. Switching them and the springs out depends on the lift and duration you plan to run. Most "street" cams don't. Headwork, an ECU, adjustable cams, and dyno tuning would be needed to get the most out of them. Cams can be, but aren't really, a bolt-in-and-hang-on affair. By comparison, a VVT head and controller can yield some impressive gains, especially in the area of usable torque. Should also mention, extreme cams can make it hard to pass smog.

With the NB1 engine, keeping CA regs in mind, you can get some nice bump by shaving the head, adding the MS cam, EUDM square top mani, '01 header, or JDM/EUDM OE header, and larger midpipe and exhaust.

My '99 is a CA emissions car. Simply adding an '01 header, 2.25" mid and RB exhaust uncorked it considerably.

friend of mine in ATL did an NB1 engine swap in an NA. Using a Mega squirt + square top + header/exhaust, he dynoed 140-145hp.

Holy crap, that's quite a bit of power.

You'd make a fat chunk more with a decent blower or hell, just keep it the way it is for some serious autox fun...... damn my goal is 150hp or so for my miatachallenge car... hopefully the boost of a maxim header will get me closer for cheaper than most people.

[kung fu jesus]

NASA Miata PTE/PTC guys in CA are seeing 140-160 on the VVt motors with mods mentioned above and a standalone + good tuning. They choose to run as a dyno class to open their options (cars are dyno'd before the race, winners after again).

[kung fu jesus]

yeah I was thinking pretty much of doing all of that same crap. Thanks Kungfu you rule.

Hugs and French kisses back at you, sugahbuns.

[kung fu jesus]

FWIW, I attached an EUDM and USDM OEM exhaust manifold from an '01+.

[DK Wolf]

Meh, after further research and talking to a local builder.. I don't think I'll even do cams on a Miata challenge car. Points accumulated don't make it worth it for the tiny boost in HP.

Although a cammed BP motor does sound pretty damn good

[Driftdevil]

This is a good read.

http://clubroadster.net/vb_forum/59-irtb-individual-runner-throttle-bodies/81194-my-172whp-n-engine-stock-bottom-end-no-porting.html

[djsqiigles]

Ah, good ol' quin, thanks bro

[BoBo]

To the (OP), aftermarkets cams usually move your powerband higher depending if it's a mild or hot a cam. I had integral stage 2 a while back that helped my 1.6 hit 136hp on a decent tune, before it was boosted. I don't think cams are worth $, unless it's a dedicated all motor track car. I you have boost, then you don't really need it. In addition, it's a hassle to remove for smog, if the same car you are removing it from is also your dd. A company called WebCams can do a custom grind, mild enough to pass emissions. A while back, I paid about $250 for the intake cam to be re-ground on my 91mr2 5sfe. There is not a lot of support for the 5sfe motor plus my car came with solid lifters, so I went with cams and some minor headwork with tuning. I only put about 155whp, but the torque increase was great since the motor is 2.2L to begin with.

[wannafbody]

Getting 200-300 HP from a Miata is going to cost $5k plus. Megasquirt alone is $700 or more. I'm not sure it's worth the hassle vs reward. At that price range that money can be thrown at a lot of other cars that will get you much closer to the 500 HP range. Or you can do the LS swap for 15K.

[djsqiigles]

what the, since when do I want a 500hp 1.8L miata lol thanks for the reply though

[wannafbody]

what the, since when do I want a 500hp 1.8L miata lol thanks for the reply though

A 500 hp 1.8 is a bit extreme but has been done. My point is that getting 200-250 hp from a Miata will cost about the same as getting 400-500 hp with a different car.

[kung fu jesus]

Getting RELIABLE hp from a Miata will cost quite a bit more than $5k. Double or triple that if you track it.

[wannafbody]

Getting RELIABLE hp from a Miata will cost quite a bit more than $5k. Double or triple that if you track it.

The Rotrex kit will get about 200 hp but reliability is still an unknown.

[etikoner]

The only worth while cam upgrade I'd look into for a non boosted/ non built motor would be mazdaspeed intake came or just cut the exhaust cam and throw in onto the intake side.

Cams really make a difference in cars with high flowing heads like Hondas. Not so much on BP's till you start porting the head/ doing major work makes the monetary sacrifice worth it for every last HP.

Scott's NA engine died with the stock low compression and the big mahura cams,
Quinn's 01 Block and shaved head are doing a lot better numbers wise with Scotts old cams, but even then it looks like they want to rev higher to create more power, I bet even higher compression would see more of a HP gain.

And then you can look at the Florida guy who spent like 10k on his engine and won't go past 180 whp. He has a huge set of custom cams and they should definitely support higher power, so once he goes past 12:0.1 he could probably reach his hp goal.

I think BP's get off on upping compression, Marco slapped some high CR supertech pistons onto his engine with a stock 99 head and he's making 160 whp on a good tune.

Maybe if you ever get to tearing your engine down you can try looking for nice used 01 pistons and just get an oem rebuild and shave your 99 head a little and you'll probably be around 150 whp and feel nicer than stock lol.

Point is, I'd worry about having a good tune, and freeing up your intake/ exhaust to get some good gains.
its up to you if you wanna go boost or if you wanna play the NA game.

Kinda wish Mazda had caught on to Honda early on and the Miata with a better flowing higher HP engines...

[djsqiigles]

kinda wish miatas came with honda motors instead......As long as we are wishing for things haha


If I go further with an engine for miata, as in buying parts here and there to piece together on the side, a later block is deffinetly in the cards and high comp pistons. Quins setup is pretty inspirational and its easy to steal ideas from his seemingly simple assembly.

[Pfunk]

Getting RELIABLE hp from a Miata will cost quite a bit more than $5k. Double or triple that if you track it.

Quoted for truth. Still, if longevity isn't a priority you can have fun for $5K.

[silvermazda]

FWIW, I attached an EUDM and USDM OEM exhaust manifold from an '01+.
Excellent pictures. considering cali, these might be a worthwhile investment. But wouldnt the 4-1 be better in the top end? Although that 4-2-1 looks great, too bad they never pop-up as nice and complete as the one on you picture. My solution would be one of the 01's or a RB or a Mahura. Personally, it seems that the rb isnt as great on the top end. It would be great to have something that is good thru-out the whole range, but that isnt possible. Anyone do vics for the exhaust? lol.

Okay, lets inject some research into this thread. Assumming, were building a bp4w:
the cams goes as follows
the intake is a 8.4mm lift around 250 dur.
the exhaust is a 8.89mm lift and 278 dur. (as far as i can remember)

the 01 intake is a pointy 9.4 lift cant remember duration but its around 240-250. (I've heard NB's can take up to 9.5mm lift, based on this it would solidify this)

Mahura's go up to 10mm lift for 4w's and 288 duration (only 10 more than the exh-intake, but 1.1mm of lift).
Mahura VVT are 10.3-4mm of lift or maybe 10.8 I cant remember (which is insane, but from every honda/toyota engine that made 200hp, thats about where they have their cams)

Now lets analyze this a bit. They say that you can pass emmission testing with a exh-intake. Without the cat mani, I was close in the NOx, obviously in the increase overlap, we'll have more gas in the exhaust, but in this area- my car was clean, so I can see where the exhintake would pass.

2. VVT engines can tolerate high lift cams, duration, I dont know...but do know that where additional duration will lower combustion chamber pressure in a non vvt, but VVT motors can always spin their cam and close the valve sooner resulting in increased pressure/compression/torque.

Now I got 2 questions. I've read that VVT's have a different combustion chamber. Any pics of that?
and 2. They say VVT engines dont like high rpm, why? Is this a duration problem with the cam?

[BoBo]

kinda wish miatas came with honda motors instead......As long as we are wishing for things haha

Yup all the miata need would be a nice B16A1 or B18C1 with Bolt-onns. With the B18C5 on a miata you wouldn't need a turbo, that thing will pull when the rpm needle crosses over to Vtech territory.

[kung fu jesus]

The VVT motors have a fatter torque curve and lower top end than the non-vvt NB motors. The numbers don't seem like much, but driving them is a different story. That extra torque allows you to pull through corners and accelerate a bit easier without wringing the engine like, say a Honda motor. The extra torque and the delivery is really enjoyable.

[Pfunk]

A high-comp, cammed, I/H/E-worked BP motor is also a joy to hear at full song...

[BoBo]

The VVT motors have a fatter torque curve and lower top end than the non-vvt NB motors. The numbers don't seem like much, but driving them is a different story. That extra torque allows you to pull through corners and accelerate a bit easier without wringing the engine like, say a Honda motor. The extra torque and the delivery is really enjoyable.

I recently drove a 02 NB, I don't know if it's VVT. Maybe it's a tiny bit faster than my 96, I couldn't really tell the difference. However, it wasn't like my old CRX with a gs-r motor, that thing pulled harder than the NB before the needle crosses over to v-tech.However, the NB motors definitely have more low-end torque than the B16's since it has more displacement. My old 92 miata engine was close in beating my b18c1 motor in terms of HP performance. But it took my 92 miata a built head with integral stage 2 cam, I/H/E, and a decent tune to hit 138whp on megasquirt. These miata engines just doesn't do well in naturally aspirated form. Only the FM stroker would make sense, the extra 200cc will help with torque.

[etikoner]

I drove a nicely sorted NA8 with a 2001 engine. vvt wasn't working so the mid range definitely felt a little sluggish, but the top end scream was nice.

[kung fu jesus]

These miata engines just doesn't do well in naturally aspirated form.

Considering these motors were engineered in the early-mid 80s and F/I intended, that is fairly astute.

[wannafbody]

Anyone have any dynos of a BP4W engine with an exhintake?

[MiataMatt]

^That. I've heard a lot about this. My buddy cut up a totalled 95 m edition for his lotus 7 build and was asking me about this today. Any measurable gains?

Edit: Any MEASURED gains?

[silvermazda]

the exhintake on a stock 99 should be around 7hp its a little more agressive than the bp5a msm cam which gives 6hp.

[BoBo]

Considering these motors were engineered in the early-mid 80s and F/I intended, that is fairly astute.

That's why I don't bother with breather mods, there is nothing there.The only reason I went na route on my 92 was because I already had an Mr2 w/ gen 3 turbo. Not long after that I ended up boosting the 92 on 6 pounds. But the FM stroker, I have a soft spot for that.

[BoBo]

Has anyone swapped a bp4w on the earlier miatas?

[kung fu jesus]

All day.

I drove the 949racing street car which is a '94 or '95 R-pack with the VVT motor in it. I think it runs a piggyback or standalone. It's very fun for an N/A street car!

[wannafbody]

My 91 #14 car has a 99 BP4W engine with the 91 electronics. I swapped in a RX7 AFM and gained 30HP(maybe 5hp). It pulls hard and runs strong.

[BoBo]

I'm assuming a swap with a newer motor should be able to legally pass emission. Someone correct me if I'm wrong, as long as the electronics go with the newer engine in the older car everything should be fine right.

[kung fu jesus]

Are we talking California or other?

[BoBo]

Just California.

[wannafbody]

I'm in PA and bought my car prebuilt. I know that the engine has to be a later model year than the car. The 1.6 and 1.8 are so similar that I doubt most would pick up the visual clues as to which are which. The only visual clue is the FM throttle body spacer.

[Andy]

^ and which side the coil packs are on and that the 1.6 valve cover letters are engraved where as the 1.8 are extruded.

[wannafbody]

99 NB 1.8 cam cover letters are engraved as well.

[Andy]

Yah but the coil pack is on the other side.

[BoBo]

I'm in PA and bought my car prebuilt. I know that the engine has to be a later model year than the car. The 1.6 and 1.8 are so similar that I doubt most would pick up the visual clues as to which are which. The only visual clue is the FM throttle body spacer.

That's what I heard as well, as long as the engine is same year or newer and have all the emission components, then it should be legit for smog. I'm pushing 160k on my engine. I figured it should last me a few track-days and last until I finish school. I was planning to have my original motor rebuilt by FM.However, I don't mind having the newer-better 99 motor and then stroke it.

[Massiah]

That's what I heard as well, as long as the engine is same year or newer and have all the emission components, then it should be legit for smog. I'm pushing 160k on my engine. I figured it should last me a few track-days and last until I finish school. I was planning to have my original motor rebuilt by FM.However, I don't mind having the newer-better 99 motor and then stroke it.
This is correct but by "all emissions components" they mean the factory ECU and junky CA Pre-Cat as well. Before you get it smogged you have to go to the BAR Ref and get it approved or any smog shop that notices will turn you away. Not many can tell the difference between a BP-ZE or BP-4W, though. It's a gamble. For everywhere else in the US swaps are a bit easier.

To bring this back on topic, a few have referenced the BP4W exhintake. I've seen no numbers, just claims. Can anyone back this up with proof? I have a line on an exhintake setup for cheap. I will do it regardless, just want to get something solid.

[wannafbody]

Post results once done, that idea is in the back of my head as well.

[Massiah]

Yeah, I will. I dyno at a local Dynapack Hub so the numbers are much lower then a Mustang or Dynojet. Most are at 90-100whp and I/H/E cars are 5-10whp more. My NB was 107whp.

[Pfunk]

Are dynapacks that much lower?

[Massiah]

Are dynapacks that much lower?
On this particular one its usually a difference of about 10-15 horsepower. It's definitely not a dyno for showing power if you're really concerned with numbers. Much better suited for tuning.

[Stealth97]

Are dynapacks that much lower?

Dynapacks are a heartbreaker. They are FANTASTIC for tuning though. Like massiah said, 10-15 hp (or more) lower than a Dynojet AKA "egojet"

[Massiah]

Dynapacks are a heartbreaker. They are FANTASTIC for tuning though. Like massiah said, 10-15 hp (or more) lower than a Dynojet AKA "egojet"
It's a soul crushing experience on a Dynapack. Not knowing anything my first time there, I was expecting 120-130whp on my NB. 107 was a kick in the face. Another local who has a built BP on E85 with all the goodies was no more than 150whp. Both of us are looking at around 15-20whp more on a Dynojet or Mustang.

For the FI guys, two friends have a FFS system on their '96 & '01. 170whp and 150whp respectively. Both tuned about as good as the card will get them.

[Pfunk]

Ah, my stroker motor measured 175whp on a Dynapack; I'd read they are somewhat lower but I thought it might be just a few hp here or there.

[Stealth97]

It's a soul crushing experience on a Dynapack. Not knowing anything my first time there, I was expecting 120-130whp on my NB. 107 was a kick in the face. Another local who has a built BP on E85 with all the goodies was no more than 150whp. Both of us are looking at around 15-20whp more on a Dynojet or Mustang.

For the FI guys, two friends have a FFS system on their '96 & '01. 170whp and 150whp respectively. Both tuned about as good as the card will get them.

My built engine only cracked 130 w/pump gas on the dynapack. Came back with even more power on a dynapack that was notorious for reading 15% lower than that one.. made 120 whp :) Healthy stock car w/MS on the same one did not crack 100hp.. so I figure a good 35% or so more than stock.. good enough for me.

[Massiah]

Did the '99 exhintake swap on Sunday. No issues at all and fired right up on the first shot. Bit more aggressive idle but not by much. Low-Mid range expereinced no change. Top end feels like a few HP gain, especially above 6k where previously it felt like empty revs. I would really want an adjustable sprocket next time for fine tuning, I will probably do that + ECU next. Will see if I can get on a dyno before then.

[The Driver]

The VVT motors have a fatter torque curve and lower top end than the non-vvt NB motors. The numbers don't seem like much, but driving them is a different story. That extra torque allows you to pull through corners and accelerate a bit easier without wringing the engine like, say a Honda motor. The extra torque and the delivery is really enjoyable.

There is an AEM guru here in Denver (and an M.Net forum member) who found 20-25 lbs of torque on an NA with the AEM system. I will be using his services early next year, as soon as all the snow is gone. That includes dyno tuning and everything.

I do have a question, what is the best way to cam and keep the emisions clean; Mazdaspeed cam or exintake cam? How about cost effective?

Forgive the newb questions, but now that I'm tracking; I want more power, w/o a huge cash outlay.

[atlnb]

i hear the price vs reward between the two are close but a slight edge to the mazdaspeed.

[The Driver]

i hear the price vs reward between the two are close but a slight edge to the mazdaspeed.

Ultimately, it will come down to emissions, as all my cars have to be "daily drivers"; and they have to pass CO emissions.

[Pfunk]

I want more power, w/o a huge cash outlay.

Don't we all!

[The Driver]

Don't we all!

Yeah, but I'm not looking for HUGE power gains! :O

[atlnb]

The mazdaspeed is emissions legal. I have it in my car and no emission problems

[The Driver]

The mazdaspeed is emissions legal. I have it in my car and no emission problems

Sweet, thanks for the intel!

[atlnb]

Not a problem. Glad to help

[silvermazda]

Massiah, have you heard of tech3? I have an exhintake cam and a ecu. Been meaning to get a tune but 1. It never fires up right, 2. sj is about 1 hr from me. 3. I can never get get enough off days to hook up the megasquid and drive there for a tune. 4. the ecu is in the foot well and its a b*tch to remove the connectors. 5. connectors are a little worn from on/off.

[Massiah]

Massiah, have you heard of tech3? I have an exhintake cam and a ecu. Been meaning to get a tune but 1. It never fires up right, 2. sj is about 1 hr from me. 3. I can never get get enough off days to hook up the megasquid and drive there for a tune. 4. the ecu is in the foot well and its a b*tch to remove the connectors. 5. connectors are a little worn from on/off.
I've only heard of them, no experience with them. All my tuning questions and concerns are answered by Jei @ Blacktrax most of the time. What's the issue? With the tune or the exhintake? MS is pretty easy. I've got one sitting around waiting for install on my '94 R and plan on putting one in the '99 later.