Poll: Should Mazda have taken the Retro design route for the ND MX-5?

From Hemmings: https://www.hemmings.com/blog/2017/0...st-went-retro/

Proposed Retro design, front 3/4 view
https://assets.hemmings.com/blog/wp-...76-970x546.jpg

Retro side view
https://assets.hemmings.com/blog/wp-...76-970x546.jpg

Retro rear view
https://assets.hemmings.com/blog/wp-...76-970x546.jpg

As manufactured
https://assets.hemmings.com/blog/wp-...76-970x546.jpg

My only unrelated comment is about the ND RF.
That fake window is a total design fail in the automotive world.

http://st.motortrend.com/uploads/sit...ta-RF-side.jpg

Nope the ND is awesome as is. :slayer:

Mazda knocked it out of the park with the ND! It is gorgeous!

i DISLIKE THE RF, I WILL PURCHASE REGULAR ND BUT ONLY WHEN OEM HARDTOP IS MADE... BUT MAZDA DOES NOT MAKE ONE. FAIL. BIG FAIL AND THAT'S WHY I AM NOT GETTING ONE.

NOTE: THIS POST WAS PURPOSELY WRITTEN IN BOLD AND CAP LETTERS.

Looks too much like an NC.

Also, Mazda did make make an OEM removable hardtop. Only problem is it's for racecars only and expensive AF.

Retro is passé. Mazda developed an attractive and unique design language, stuck to their guns, and executed. They had to win with this design or cease the model altogether. I love it.

The ND is a stellar design, considering most cars today look so cookie cutter.
I'd say its good work producing an original looking car that also accomplishes the goals
of low weight and great handling.

Show me the OEM hardtop version for ND.

Making the retro ND would be glorifying the success of what they've produced in the past rather than looking forwards and focusing on the now. "Retro" builds are awesome, but it's only the NA that can excecute it, you wouldn't get away with spraying an ND with British Racing Green paint from the 90's....

The NA was made to tip its hat at old British Roadsters from the 60's. By the time they were designing the NB it earned the right to be referred to as its own vehicle....

Each model should be distinguishable from another, they should look as if they've tried to improve on everything from the last. They stay safe by sticking to their design of it being a minimalist car. Replicating the miata isn't difficult - it's difficult to do properly....

It was a ballsy move making the new model look as modern as it is, but we live in a world with smartphones and WiFi now, not tape decks and waiting for dial up :lol:

I think they did the MX5 justice.

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Originally Posted by Hyper

Show me the OEM hardtop version for ND.

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http://www.roadandtrack.com/motorspo...than-road-car/

The ND is practically Mazda's only semblance of a halo car. I mean, how would it look if the the model that Mazda wants its customers to aspire to doesn't follow the current design language of the rest of its lineup. Besides that, the current design language is so beautifully executed on a mass scale with interiors to match.

I understand wanting a retro focused car, but didn't they already do the soap bar shape with the NC?

[/QUOTE] I understand wanting a retro focused car, but didn't they already do the soap bar shape with the NC?[/QUOTE]

+1 on the Retro comment and the NC. The NC was just a bad car, it didn't embody the nimble and lightweight design that the NA/NB did. The recipe for the NB barely changed because they knew not to fix something that wasn't broken. The Japanese have a habit of re-using old designs or tweaking something that already exists to suit. There's a lot to be said for that mentality, especially since it works. :D

I've come to realize that no one can really win a debate as to which design is best, since we're dealing with personal taste. One might give a good argument as to why one design might sell better than another, or which is more aerodynamic, or provide reason and evidence about something that's quantifiable --- but no one can provide any objective criteria to justify a claim of aesthetic superiority that isn't ultimately subjective. One person prefers retro while another believes it to be an outdated goal. Neither is really correct. They're just expressing their personal preferences. So, while I can say I would have preferred a retro-styled ND, I realize there's nothing I can add to that to suggest others ought to agree with me. To each his own. There's plenty out there to satisfy every taste.

I have to agree to be fair, everyone also has a different definition of what something would be. Retro for some could mean pre-2000's where for others it's pre 90's, or pre 70's etc.

I prefer the retro idea, but leaning towards 60's British roadsters level of retro, inside and out. Again personal prefernce, but I prefer soft lines and shapes over harsh and aggressive stabs. That being said I still prefer the newer ND...

The NC does nothing for me; confession time... I won't fault anyone who gets one, I'd personally just opt for an FD RX7 over an NC. Considering the NC at its heaviest weighed more than the FD too...

I wanted to point out, too, that there are a lot of vastly different regulations and requirements for modern cars that would make a retro-styled NA or NB difficult to execute. Pedestrian crash regulations for one, let alone the packaging of a FR engine and drivetrain configuration. Mazda engineers made a huge effort to produce a modern, functional, lightweight car that was congruent to their other products. I don't think that is really appreciated in a technical aspect enough. Consider the amount of added safety equipment, infotainment, insulation, and chassis rigidity the ND has over it's predecessors. That the styling would be as unique and true to the original formula of the first Miatas realeased in '89 is really a tremendous feat.

What the new ND MX-5 did, perhaps better than any Mazda that had come before it, was lay a groundwork of objectives that had to be met without compromise. The car had to be lighter, smaller, more efficient and with a design that shared little between it and other Mazda vehicles. With the car only slightly heavier than the NA, it's a proper return to form and an exceptional achievement given all the safety equipment and regulations it has to pass compared to some 30 years ago.

I personally think the styling is bang on. Looks much nicer than the 124 Abarth haha!

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Originally Posted by kung fu jesus

I wanted to point out, too, that there are a lot of vastly different regulations and requirements for modern cars that would make a retro-styled NA or NB difficult to execute. Pedestrian crash regulations for one, let alone the packaging of a FR engine and drivetrain configuration. Mazda engineers made a huge effort to produce a modern, functional, lightweight car that was congruent to their other products. I don't think that is really appreciated in a technical aspect enough. Consider the amount of added safety equipment, infotainment, insulation, and chassis rigidity the ND has over it's predecessors. That the styling would be as unique and true to the original formula of the first Miatas realeased in '89 is really a tremendous feat.

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This! I still am amazed that they were able to do all of that and keep it as light as they did! The fact that is weighs about what an NA does and it has all the creature comforts and safety features of a modern day car is incredible!

They definitely achieved a lot in regards to keeping it light but still comfortable inside... And as said considering they managed to squeeze what four or six air bags in there too..... Uncanny....

There is some good that comes out of the Fiat, it shares the exact same interior as the ND, but is covered in luxurious Italian leather and finesse.... I reckon the panels would bolt straight up, carbon copies...

I really like the exterior of the ND, and the fact that it is/looks really small and tidy compared to the 124. However, I have been in an Abarth 124 and the interior is amazing indeed in terms of finishing. And those Recaro seats...

Despite the fact that I'm not all that excited about the exterior of the ND, I think the interior is as nice a design as any car out there. It's really top notch without being fussy in any way. I couldn't have asked for a nicer interior design (again, just my opinion).

I like the overall design of both exterior and interior, just don't like the infotainment package, wish it was an option only, to me it looks strange sticking up in the dash. Also waiting on different colors to come out and hopefully some Special / Limited editions with different goodies IE: Special colors and / or interiors like Mazda did with 1995 Laguna Blue and Tan or 93LE, :bow: And a Mazdaspeed with a factory turbo in Blazing Yellow with a black stripe or Candy Apple Red with light Gray seats would be really nice! :slayer:

Retro all the way for me!


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Personally I like it the way it is. Either soft top or RF. Having seen an RF in person is it sleek and aggressive to me. I like it the way that it is. They have pulled of a bit of an 'expensive' design style with the sweeping lines, and the aggressive face. I love every part of it, it is just the perfect modern car to me. IMHO it looks better than some of the newer Ferrari's, Lambo's and even Mercs. The only thing is, is that the designer(s) really just needed to get loose and go f*** it and throw any colour they could think of at it. Something rash, bashful and that makes a statement in the world of colours chosen from a Rock wall, and insired by the roads it will drive on. Grey and bleak.

(On a side note, who the hell designed that hardtop. It really looks repulsive and f***s the flow and design of the ND up.)

That was a bit of a ramble but oh well. :roll:

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Originally Posted by MX5Wisher

On a side note, who the hell designed that hardtop. It really looks repulsive and f***s the flow and design of the ND up.

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Hardtops are almost always an after thought to give people choices and appeal to the few people that might otherwise have not been interested without a hardtop option, people expect too much nowadays. They want a comfortable grand tourer that's also sporty with loads of feedback... :shrug:

They've designed the RF and Softop exclusively to what people want. I can't see why someone would buy a softwood with the optional hardtop when the RF exists. A huge chunk of Miata owners would love a fastback option, enough that a lot of people have attempted to make their own, they have listened to the community which is impressive, most car makers build what they want, not what the people buying them want.

That, and the side profile of the car looks amazing. Some of us just can't afford a 911 :lol:

I'll say it again though, the ND is the ONLY car on the market right now that I'd buy new

There was the Ibuki concept in the early/mid '00s that demonstrated Mazda considered retro styling for the NC.

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Design has so many subjective and objective constraints that the styling is really sort of the easy/fun part. I think of the NC as a late bloomer. Its not a horrible car, just too much of a departure from the previous two generations that people dismissed it too readily. It also shared the RX8 platform, which was also a departure. The NC Miata is much like the 996 Porsche 911. Purists hated the car and Porsche designed it to share many other parts and components with other cars in their product lineup. It lost some of it's uniqueness, but helped save the company from collapse. As the NC evolved through a few styling updates, and mechanical improvements, I started to appreciate it more. I am especially fond of the NC3s. I "get it" now.

Mazda was torn between distinctly different consumer bases with the Miata after the NC came out. It saw the fans of the older models, mostly younger drivers, and the fans of the newer model (NC) and they were older drivers. How do please both groups when you want to draw the younger drivers to buying the new one without alienating the other? Add in a global financial crisis, slumping sales, segment market competition, and a huge, upcoming generation emerging as dominant consumers, it's a minefield.

Every marque has models that are controversial. The Porsche example, BMW breaking new ground with their "flame surfacing" design language, even Mercedes is altering their language, where all three are typically more evolutionary in their model progression, versus revolutionary. I think if you look at Mazda products as a whole, among the generations, the ND fits the family of products as closely as the NB did for it's time (look at the MX6, 929, RX-7), but the Miata has never set the language for them, it's not their top line car. The NB follows the design of the previous mentioned cars, and the ND is following a similar path, though in short order.

The interior of the ND is really quite good, but it frustrates me that Mazda is so conservative with it in terms of material, colors, and finishes. It BEGS to be bold, but it's quite reserved. It's either for cost, or conservation. They need the ND to be successful for the model to continue. I suspect they may open it up a bit if it is. For now, they are relying on their engine technology and success of other models (CX lineup, Mazda 3 & 6) to carry them through. The Miata is a small segment car that just happens to sell well because of it's formula.

+1

Whilst on the topic of the new engine tech, I recently read somewhere that the next generation (or revision) of their SkyActiv engines were to be built with an 18:1 compression ratio and not use spark plugs :frantic:

If they pull that off then damn, that's a milestone :lol:

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Originally Posted by DarylSibcy

+1

Whilst on the topic of the new engine tech, I recently read somewhere that the next generation (or revision) of their SkyActiv engines were to be built with an 18:1 compression ratio and not use spark plugs :frantic:

If they pull that off then damn, that's a milestone :lol:

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I believe they already have pulled it off if I'm not mistaken.

Regarding the styling of the ND...

I'm more of a Retro guy myself and am drawn to the classic lines of years gone by and although it is a bit contrived, I like it when cars like the Mustang, Camaro and Challenger are designed to draw upon their heritage.

I saw that mock up of the retro inspired ND a while ago and I thought, "What a shame." That said I like the design of the ND as it is. It stands on its own to me.

Seeing the design direction that Mazda is heading with the latest concept cars and it is difficult not to get excited about the next generation of the MX-5. If it looks half as beautiful as the last two Mazda concept cars it will be a hit out of the ball park.

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Originally Posted by DarylSibcy

+1

Whilst on the topic of the new engine tech, I recently read somewhere that the next generation (or revision) of their SkyActiv engines were to be built with an 18:1 compression ratio and not use spark plugs :frantic:

If they pull that off then damn, that's a milestone :lol:

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If they put it into a Miata, they would probably tune it to 155 hp :frantic:

Yes, I read about the ignitionless engines Mazda is developing, it's very interesting!

I think something to consider is that the NA Miata is styled very closely from British roadsters of the 60s. If you consider the Mustang and Camaro as original designs, then their current designs that nod to their origins makes sense (love the new Mustang, BTW). Mazda really had to move forward because a retro design styled from other retro designs is really muddy. They learned some valuable lessons from the NC, so I think the ND is a great correction towards the future.

I think Mazda is tone deaf to the American consumer. Being Japan’s smallest car company that could, you would think they’d listen to 20 years of feedback and install the same 360hp motor in the Miata as they did their Speed3s.

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Originally Posted by Agent☣Orange

I think Mazda is tone deaf to the American consumer. Being Japan’s smallest car company that could, you would think they’d listen to 20 years of feedback and install the same 360hp motor in the Miata as they did their Speed3s.

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The modern concept of Mazda's horse & rider as one.
https://i.ytimg.com/vi/3OjPBJpIbCg/hqdefault.jpg

I think Mazda should have installed the 2.5 liter engine. That would have been ideal for power & torque while having control at the limit with a normal aspirated engine.
Then later offered a turbo version.
Both being out of their parts bin.

If I would guess, the reason they did not do that is because of the Fiat 124 version. They did not want to significantly out-shine that model.
But in retrospect, they should have gone it alone and shot for BRZ/Toyota 86 market share to get production volume rather than the Fiasta option.

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Originally Posted by MiataQuest

If they put it into a Miata, they would probably tune it to 155 hp :frantic:

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BBR have already 155hp~ with a remap on the 1.5L engine, they sell the "starchip" for around £600, damn bargain. That power rivals my built 1.6, mine cost near £4k to get to that level though. The 2.0L can apparently hit 195hp with their cams and a remap.

I wouldn't be surprised if Mazda either up the power output, or decrease the engine size significantly (to a 1.2L/1.3L - or whatever gives them the same output as the current lineup). I feel the latter is more likely given the world of today demanding fuel efficient engines that produce less CO2... Why not abuse the high compression with a smaller engine, best of both worlds

I'll even go as far as saying I wouldn't be surprised if they could pull it off with a little 3 cylinder engine to cut weight off the engine block.

Problem is, if they did, would it want to rev the same? Very few cars in today's market rev up to 7500rpm. Not ones with small price tags anyway

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Apologies on digressing from the OP's topic. Back to NA vs ND looks :D

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Originally Posted by Agent☣Orange

I think Mazda is tone deaf to the American consumer. Being Japan’s smallest car company that could, you would think they’d listen to 20 years of feedback and install the same 360hp motor in the Miata as they did their Speed3s.

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It would only work with an American market though. Lack of power is always the top comment when talking about a Miata, but I've noticed it tends to be the West that it's mostly a problem too. Being in the UK myself, people tend to lean towards Tuner cars rather than Muscle. The Mustang and Camaro are awesome and gorgeous cars, I still haven't driven one to this day. I've chased one over the local mountain during a race event though, 5.0L vs 1.6L. In my environment here anything more than 200hp and I don't see it being used, the roads are too narrow and aren't straight enough to open a big engine up.

You at least have Flyin' Miata for the V8 jobs :winky:

I have heard discussion of tuners decoding the ND ECU and remapping it to around 200bhp, n/a.

I'm ambivalent about the power output of a specialized Miata. I'd kind of like to see it around 300hp, but I also know the car will drive completely different. The V8 swaps are pretty useless, IMO. You're fighting physics to get the power down in a car like this, so driving it looks really boring. I equate it to being on a racetrack in a Dodge Challenger; fast in the straights, dicey in the corners. The few times I've been on track the same time with a V8 Miata, it was a rolling roadblock in the corners.

I have difficulty understanding Mazda's product lineup at times. Since the demise of the RX7, they really don't have halo car. If you look at their hottest performance models in the past 10-3 years, they have been sedans or 5 door wagons. That helps insurance for the US market. Perhaps they don't have the leeway to risk a hot performance Miata on showroom floors when they have such a close relationship with the aftermarket companies? I also wonder if American consumers are too fickle and soft for that. If an RF is around 32k USD, a hot versions would be what? 38-40k? That's a steep price for such a small market. For example, the Mustang Ecoboost starts around $26k and the convertible at $32k. You're going to have a hard time selling more units against a car like that, even though that's not really an apples to apples comparison. The Mustang GT (V8) starts around 35k, and THAT is a lot of car for the money. Maybe Mazda is wiser than us to stay between the lines?

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Originally Posted by kung fu jesus

Maybe Mazda is wiser than us to stay between the lines?

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I suppose it depends on their target audience? Mazda has definitely been putting a lot of effort in over the years to boost sales State-side, but different markets want different things. My home area is littered with hot-hatches and people with an incessant need to have a big-whoosh-turbo (to the extent of if you don't fit that description, you're not a "car guy" here"). It's rare to see purpose built cars on the roads here anymore, like the miata or an elise, I've never actually seen an FD in the flesh either, if I wanted one I'd have to ship it :lol: There's an abudnace of early 00's WRX's and Evo's; they're normally written off by a youngster prety swiftly anyway.

The RX7 was the best car mazda built, and the best car to come out of Japan for me. It had the perfect recipe despite being powered by a rotary, which only elevated the car to another level that other cars couldn't touch. The reception became the gold standard, even nowadays I feel a lot of people would happily buy the RX7 of today's world, if they were still making them. I feel the RX8 was intended to take the crown as Mazda's headline act. The recipe was right, and a lot of the previous rotary's gremlins had been resolved, but it's as if Mazda were trying to sell the RX8 to the same crowd that either wanted the RX7 or for previous owners, who were now at least 10 or 15yrs older and needed something more practical beacause they were 40+ with other commitments :lol:

I understand a car will always be built around a budget, but the Miata and the RX7 acheived very different goals. I remember the notion "The MX5 is the sports car for everyone, the RX7 is the sports car for the engineers who built them", I just can't remember where from :lol:

Mazda seem to be trying to compete with BMW and Audi alot with the Mazda6, it'ss a cpabale beast but not everyone wants a saloon car. I feel Mazda have an ace up their sleeve, maybe it's a new generation of the RX lineup, they've been quiet for awhile with that now, I just hope it's priced sensibly to sell. Unfortunately again though, in today's market I can't see reliable, well built sports cars being sold for acceptable prices. The world has got too constringent on emissions and fuel economy, hence why cars with solid power cost, and swapping in an aftermarket part can net such a power bump now. Cars aren't weak, they're just choked to death to pass regulations.

On a side note, but also relating to an overpowered V8 miata - there's currently a V6 conversion in the works. As in an actual company providing a turn key kit using a 3.0L engine out of the old Jaguar S Type, cost is currently around 6-7k all in, you just need a donor car. The engine from there could easily be tuned to get near the 300hp mark, it'd be a lot of work though. :shrug:

Mazda has been marketing their fuel economy and driving experience here until recently. Now they are promoting their design and quality perception. I won’t argue that emissions requirements are higher, but the engineering and tech is catching up. Today’s vehicles are making amazing power and economy.

The only way I see Mazda reviving the rotary is in a hybrid platform, which makes sense for that application. If the rx7 comes back, I would expect it to be a similar formula as an NSX or McLaren, but that’s a tough sell unless the pricing is right.

On another side note, that Jag engine is garbage. I would definitely be in for the GM LFx swap. Those V6s are lovely and the power and delivery is a far better match for the chassis than a LSx swap (IMHO). :)

As an NA owner I think the ND is a great 21st century update. There are some aspects of it styling that could be tweaked in my opinion but nothing significant. Overall Mazda can be proud of it.

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Originally Posted by kung fu jesus

The only way I see Mazda reviving the rotary is in a hybrid platform, which makes sense for that application. If the rx7 comes back, I would expect it to be a similar formula as an NSX or McLaren, but that’s a tough sell unless the pricing is right.

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The NSX was executed completely wrong in my eyes, 165k for a Honda powered by a twin-turbo V6 is scandalous. Considering you could have a GTR for under 40k now, I don't see why anyone would buy one.

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Originally Posted by lucmor444

As an NA owner I think the ND is a great 21st century update. There are some aspects of it styling that could be tweaked in my opinion but nothing significant. Overall Mazda can be proud of it.

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I love the NA (mostly because I own one), but I imagine the ND probably fulfils Mazda's vision on the "perfect roadster" better than any other model, and without a doubt drives better too