Sup.I was excited about this place, until I saw some moderator carry overs from that other site. I was hoping this would be a more member based site, and less "Act like you love everyone, because the founders know how people should act" type of joint.Oh well.
Have to admit, I feel the same. At first I was excited but now I'm indifferent and slowly deleting myself out of here and there. New forum, same Mods, same thieves = pointless to be here.
When the police care more about the law than the people that they serve, tyranny is born.Originally Posted by Stoly
Meet the new boss, same as the old boss.
Same thing here. Waiting to see if the situation changes.
Jason McDaniel
Yeah, so are we.
If you have something in particular you want to vent or discuss, please feel free to PM me. This site is about what you want to see and do, so we can't help you if don't relay that to the mods and admin.
Last edited by kung fu jesus; 12-26-2011 at 02:02 PM.
I have already talked to the person about it, and he is simply under the impression that "rules are rules" and that people "should know better" than to say certain things that he sees as inappropriate. In accordance, he simply edited my posts without warning, without bothering to ask for clarification, or without bothering to ask me, a member, to edit my own post, something that would be respectful.Yeah, so are we.
If you have something in particular you want to vent or discuss, please feel free to PM me. This site is about what you want to see and do, so we can't help you if don't relay that to the mods and admin.
To be honest, I see no reason to talk about any issues in private, when the problem affects everyone.
The site I currently run, and the many very large and successful sites that I have run in the past, had a Terms Of Service for the moderators and admins. I wrote the TOS for the staff on the site I run. It establishes rules and regulations for moderating, and a procedure for dealing with members that do something that is either inappropriate or seemingly against the rules.
If there is no TOS for the staff, then you simply have no accountability when it comes to them enforcing the "rules". You need a extremely balanced, unbiased, and ethical person, one that understands the ultimate goal of the site, to establish criteria that regulates these so called "moderators". Most simply attack posts as they see fit, using nothing other than their emotional reaction as a stimulus.
You don't need a team of people to write a TOS for staff members, you just need one person that is extremely versed in the subject. I have effectively admined over one half of a million members, and have done very little post editing and deletion over the last decade or so. The key to an effective staff is painfully simple. Respect. Respect for the members, respect for what they have to say, and respect for their willingness to say it. The staff is here to serve the members, they are not here to stand over them and act like Gods. Their duty is to communicate and resolve issues, not to edit posts and end the avenue of communication. You can't solve a problem by disallowing people to talk about their problems. If they wish to argue and bicker, than so be it. If someone wishes to not read their arguing, then they can leave the discussion. But deleting posts and expecting people to stop talking about an issue, is simply idiotic, literally.
I am not saying that you should run your site as I have run my sites, nor am I suggesting that I should give you a blueprint for running a forum. I am simply saying that I am a person that wishes to speak his mind, and if some power hungry control freak thinks that they know what I should or should not say, then I will simply not bother extending myself to this community. I mean, if I wanted to hang out in someones idea of utopia, I'd rather it be my own idea, and not some farce policed by people that can't be bothered to understand my posts, let alone "tolerate" my style of discourse. Admittedly, I am a satirist, I speak in metaphor, I rarely state anything in my own opinion. I value my ability to see things that others might not see. I value my ability to say things others might not say. For someone to remove my posts because they think that what I have said is offensive or "over the top", is disrespectful. They may have an idea about what I have said in my poetic ramblings, they may only see what they want to see in my posts. But none of what they see in my post can be absolute. If they do not understand the entirety of what I have said, then they can never be so well informed to edit what I have said. Sure, I cause problems. I am not interested in being a "yes man" who posts "positive" insight in my replies. I find a hole, and I open it up wide enough to bury a few terrible gallons of crap into the space left behind. I must be a horrible person, one with no life, and so full of hate that my life is a complete waste, and I must never have ever gotten laid. Or, I think a lot of shit is funny, shit that no one else cares about.
So, I want a complete absence of censorship, within reason, of course. I know that pics of dicks and shit is well beyond acceptable.
No moderating, as far as editing posts and deleting or thread banning/site banning, at least for the dedicated membership, would be wonderful.
I could go into extreme detail, but to be honest, I don't think this topic is so incredibly important to people other than perhaps stoly and a few others, people that have been victim of overzealous mods that think themselves to be more important than the members that they "police".
That was pretty good! Thanks for that! I respect your desire to make this a public discussion. I prefer to speak plainly and openly, too.
I think you make some really good points and suggestions. I think a TOS would actually be a good idea for more consistent moderation. I think it is also good for the participants, the membership, to know what is tolerated and what isn't. Personally, I do not like to edit posts someone else wrote. Polarizing topics and members can have positive and negative effects, I feel it is my responsibility to keep them positive regardless of my own opinion. Opposite viewpoints and opinions are healthy and important so long as the intent or tone is conducive to the goal of the site.
Communication is also key. Sometimes it breaks down if one of the parties involved has an agenda or lack of perspective. I have to admit to making mistakes as a moderator, but I try to learn from them and communicate that to those I have wronged. I also don't like heavy-handed moderation and I do not like to ban people, but there is a lot of noise to be filtered sometimes and that can be difficult to sift through if it becomes widespread. This can also hurt the goal for the site.
That said, do you have a TOS from one of your sites?
Hey Josh thanks for all the input, this forum was just started as of last week, so there is going to be a learning curve for both the members and mod staff. That said if you want to help out this community then please by all means if you have a guideline TOS you can share I'm all eyes/ears, and I try to get stuff done post haste.
I sent you an email you can respond back to. Thanks in advance!
Randy
Looks like I have a lot to catch up on, lol
Sent to Randy, but just for fun...
In the event of your appointment to the role of volunteer Moderator or Administrator of MazdaRoadster.net Forums, you will have agreed to the terms of this agreement for the entirety of the duration of your position.
As a Moderator and or Administrator, your intended appointed duty is to make certain that the content of the forums located on MazdaRoadster.net meets the standards that are established in this Terms Of Service agreement, the Members Terms Of Service agreement, and the expectations of the primary founding entity of MazdaRoadster.net, Randy George. The duty of the membership is to abide by the Terms Of Service agreement that the membership agrees to at the initial registration for MazdaRoadster.net. The duty of the Moderator and Administrator is to abide by the rules of this Terms Of Service agreement.
The Moderator and Administrator is firstly a member of MazdaRoadster.net, entitled to the privileges of membership awarded to any and all other members, with noted exclusion detailed in this agreement.
Threads and Posts:
As a member, entitled to the privileges of any and all other members, it is acceptable for Moderators and Administrators to post threads and replies to other members threads and posts as separate entities to MazdaRoadster.net. However, when a Moderator or Administrator posts outside their appointed duty as a staff member on MazdaRoadster.net, they do so with the understanding that their private opinions are not reflective of MazdaRoadster.net, and that MazdaRoadster.net does not endorse any privately held opinion.
Confidential Information:
Information garnered as a result of your tenure as a Moderator or Administrator of MazdaRoadster.net that pertains to your appointed duty is information that is confidential in nature and shall be treated as such. Unless prior consent is given, any information that is gained through your appointment shall not be shared with any person. By agreeing to this Terms Of Service, you agree to maintain confidentiality indefinitely.
Moderating:
As a Moderator or Administrator at MazdaRoadster.net you are duty bound to be respectful of the Members while in your official capacity as a Moderator or Administrator. Any and all communication that is representative of MazdaRoadster.net must accomplished with the strict professionalism.
Content that is deemed offensive shall only be removed or edited to alter the disposition of the post in accordance with the Terms Of Service agreement that Members agree to at the onset of their registration. Any content that a Moderator or Administrator finds objectionable that is outside of the confines of what is unacceptable, in accordance with the Terms Of Service agreement previously mentioned, shall be brought to the attention to the Moderator and Administrator staff to determine whatever action, if any, should be taken.
As a Moderator or Administrator, you must abide by the following process, in chronological order, in the course of your duty.
-Content found objectionable under the Membership Terms Of Service agreement shall firstly be reported.
-A Personal Message will be sent to the member advising them of their inappropriate behavior, including an attempt to resolve the situation, before any further corrective action is taken.
-Any parties involved in a conflict must be alerted, by Personal Message, of ANY corrective action that has been put into place to resolve the issue. This includes, but is not limited to, Personal Messages, Post Editing, Post Deleting, Thread banning, Temporary or Permanent Site Banning, including any and all corrective action.
-In the event that a Member is non-compliant with a Moderator or an Administrator request, possible corrective action may be taken, including, but not limited to, Post Editing, Post Deleting, Thread banning, Temporary or Permanent Site Banning, or any other corrective action.
All Post Editing, Post Deleting, Thread banning, Temporary or Permanent Site Banning, including any and all corrective action, is subject to open discussion and may be rescinded.
My god. If this board were to abide by these rules, it would be a virtual paradise. I always wished that.... other board... would have created rules for the mods like this.As a Moderator or Administrator, you must abide by the following process, in chronological order, in the course of your duty.
-Content found objectionable under the Membership Terms Of Service agreement shall firstly be reported.
-A Personal Message will be sent to the member advising them of their inappropriate behavior, including an attempt to resolve the situation, before any further corrective action is taken.
-Any parties involved in a conflict must be alerted, by Personal Message, of ANY corrective action that has been put into place to resolve the issue. This includes, but is not limited to, Personal Messages, Post Editing, Post Deleting, Thread banning, Temporary or Permanent Site Banning, including any and all corrective action.
-In the event that a Member is non-compliant with a Moderator or an Administrator request, possible corrective action may be taken, including, but not limited to, Post Editing, Post Deleting, Thread banning, Temporary or Permanent Site Banning, or any other corrective action.
All Post Editing, Post Deleting, Thread banning, Temporary or Permanent Site Banning, including any and all corrective action, is subject to open discussion and may be rescinded.
Through years of dealing with conflicts, I have come to realize that the possibility of things ending up being completely one sided and in favor of one party only, is enormous.
You HAVE to establish some sort of criteria for the staff. Police do not simply have a rule book that applies to civilians only. They have rules that they must follow too.
There is no reason that staff members should not have a TOS. The absence of a TOS for staff members is simply a lack of vision, an absence of design. You can't expect anyone to do something in a fair and balanced way, ethically, without establishing what your expectations are. I used to earn my living by policing moderators and admins. I had, at one time, four web forums that I wrote policy for, established a chain of command, and implemented a step by step process for interaction with members and problems. The NUMBER ONE problem that I had was the moderators not wanting to take the time to communicate with members. They would rather perform corrective action and never bother to give the member a chance to correct it themselves. They would give bullshit answers like "They have been a member here for years, they know what they should do, why should I have to babysit them?". I have found that if you are respectful and ask a member, they generally will be compliant. HOWEVER, if you simply edit their posts and treat them with contempt, they WILL place their frustration on the SITE itself, eventually, possibly. That means, as the person that is head of the staff, I was the one to blame. The correct action for me? Remove them from staff. If a person has no respect for the members that they serve, then they have NO place on staff, period.
The moderators first line of action is to communicate. Both conflicting parties should be notified, and any issue should first be attempted to end in resolve through no corrective action at all, other than verbal discourse. If a moderator is not able to talk to people and resolve conflict on a reasonably often basis, then they should be removed from staff. Allowing the moderators and administrators to simply run free, establishes a precedent that is not easily defeated. It is hard to reverse a behavior when a "overseer" reaches the point that they do not respect the members. I have taken over a few forums, in a hostile fashion, and removed the entire staff. If you have to build from scratch, you are at an advantage. If you take a staff that has behavioral issues, then you are doomed to have a few members feel as though they are not respected.
Bottom line is this, you NEED members. EVERY forum does. They come into your space and grant you the ability to view their own world. You are NOT "giving" them some sort of "home". You are not doing them a favor. Members are doing YOU a favor, because without members, you would have NO forum. You have to respect the people that find themselves here, in your space, and are good enough to make your space into something that is valuable to yourself and every other member. Whatever they may add to the space, is an addition that is valuable, whether or not you understand what they are doing or not. Forums are made of personalities. A wide variety of personality is what makes a forum appealing to such a wide and diverse group. Having 10,000 "Yes" men, all posting the same thing, over and over, is not a community, it is a cult. I mean, what would that other site be, without nannerpus? Hank? Stoly? Breezy? Wolery? It would be a boring site that would collapse.
The only thing that kept me from parking my 225lbs on that other site on a permanent basis, was the staff. I can't work with censorship, because it is based on a precedent, and opinion, of what is "good" and what is "bad". I am a satirist, I don't bother to speak clearly, I talk in parable and metaphor. I wish to hide my message in a group of words that could be interpreted in many ways. The novel that I am writing is exactly the same. It is not about my ex girlfriend and me murdering her, it is about the human experience and how experience in life with grant you access to view things that you never knew were there. You see, if one person were to interpret your words, they would look for what they know, they would look for their own experiences with the words that you type. They don't know what the word "pickled" means in context to your post, they might see it as some sort of carbon based life form that was cured in a brine. Perhaps you were talking about something other than a cucumber, maybe you were referring to an experience that you had, where some situation that you were trapped in caused such a disturbance in your disposition, that you are forever sour to the ones that wish to take from you.
To be honest, I enjoy saying what I want, and often, I disguise praise in some sort of disgusting insult. It is a way to temper people. I won't explain away my operative manual, but I just see things differently than your normal staff member. Inability to express myself in the way that I see fit, is nothing more than feeding me into a wood chipper, for fear that I might offend someone.
If you have to kill variety so that you can understand the world, then by all means, you might be a tyrant.
I understand this. It makes sense to me. I agree with it and have the same sentiment Adam does.
I believe if the other forum was moderated the same way, it would have been easier to manage and had far less issues spinning out of control.
Well, then I conclude that you must be a reasonably unbiased person, able to see the value of diversity outside of your own interests and desires.
That is important in a discussion about ethics, since ethics are very opinion based and relative to the speaker more than the audience. Being able to respect other people regardless of their ideas, is the most important quality that a moderator can have.
All,
We are working on a Mod TOS so that you can know what to expect from us. Please do not take silence in this thread as ignorance of the discussion.
Expect to see a reply as soon as we have things ironed out.
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