Engine sound query

[Aki yuno]

Hey MR.

Just a quick question. On start up when the car has been parked over night or parked up for 6+ hours, there is a rather noticeable metallic rattle from what sounds like the top end of the engine. It's only persists for a second or two then it dampens down and you can't hear it at all. Anyone have any idea what it could be?


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[RustRat]

Probably hydraulic lifters, aka "lifter tick". happens to most 1.6, I guess.


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[Aki yuno]

Probably hydraulic lifters, aka "lifter tick". happens to most 1.6, I guess.


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Ah, ok. Is there anyway to fix it or stop it? I don't want the engine to go bang! [emoji30]


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[benpopham]

They all do it, a change of oil usually helps.

Nothing will go bang.

If they get really bad they can be rebuilt, it is just a case of removing the cams and pulling the lifters out. It is quite an enjoyable job if you like that sort of thing.

[Martin]

My wife's car uses a light on the dash to tell when the oil needs to be changed. My car ticks when it wants new oil :)

[Aki yuno]

My wife's car uses a light on the dash to tell when the oil needs to be changed. My car ticks when it wants new oil :)

It's had an oil change, not so long ago. What oil do you use, mile has 116k miles on it.


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[Martin]

5w40 Rotella T6



http://g-ecx.images-amazon.com/images/G/01/aplusautomation/vendorimages/34384919-bde7-45ff-8f64-d3624d8c30cf._V334775122__SR300,300_.jpg

[MiataQuest]

Question...
Do any of the oil filters offered for the Miata have an anti-drain back feature?
I know when I use regular oil filters (even Bosch) on my two Audi 5000's they will clatter at start-up.
If I use a Mann filter with the anti-drain back feature I have no clattering at start-up. (Unless it sits for many days)
=====================
My Audi loves Mobil-1 15W-50 in the summer.
Better to have some clattering at start-up with thicker oils than no clattering with thinner oils. With the thicker oils just take it easy on the engine until it reaches operating temperature. Then you can run the heck out of it.

Thinner oils are great for start-up and short trips, but not good for a high revving hot engine. Thin oils get air whipped to create foaming at high RPMs which causes poor lubrication. You can identify this condition when you have clattering hydraulic lifters after a hard run.

[Aki yuno]

5w40 Rotella T6



http://g-ecx.images-amazon.com/images/G/01/aplusautomation/vendorimages/34384919-bde7-45ff-8f64-d3624d8c30cf._V334775122__SR300,300_.jpg

I might put 5w/40 in mine next time, see how that goes :) thanks :)


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[MiataQuest]

I might put 5w/40 in mine next time, see how that goes :) thanks :)


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk That sounds like a plan. What oil weight were you using before?
I need to do some research on oil filters. I will let you know if I find out anything about anti-drain back features.
The OEM filter is probably good, but wow it is so small!

[Aki yuno]

That sounds like a plan. What oil weight were you using before?
I need to do some research on oil filters. I will let you know if I find out anything about anti-drain back features.
The OEM filter is probably good, but wow it is so small!

I'm using petronas 5w/30 because I thought a thinner oil would suit the engine. 5w/40 I think will be a better choice :)


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[Aki yuno]

They all do it, a change of oil usually helps.

Nothing will go bang.

If they get really bad they can be rebuilt, it is just a case of removing the cams and pulling the lifters out. It is quite an enjoyable job if you like that sort of thing.

Have you done the job yourself? If so, how long does it take and do I need any specialist tools?


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[kung fu jesus]

Enjoy my guttural upper Midwestern accent while I describe an HLA refurb:

Part 1

https://youtu.be/gSwmsGG_2sQ

Part 2

https://youtu.be/b5M-Hg27usY

There are other tutorial videos and write ups out there. It's easiest to do this when doing a timing belt service because you have to remove the cams, cam gears, etc, anyways. The HLA refurb will take about 2 hours working at an even pace. This is not including disassembling the cams, or reinstallation.

[Aki yuno]

Enjoy my guttural upper Midwestern accent while I describe an HLA refurb:

Part 1

https://youtu.be/gSwmsGG_2sQ

Part 2

https://youtu.be/b5M-Hg27usY

There are other tutorial videos and write ups out there. It's easiest to do this when doing a timing belt service because you have to remove the cams, cam gears, etc, anyways. The HLA refurb will take about 2 hours working at an even pace. This is not including disassembling the cams, or reinstallation.

Was anything specialised required? Thanks for the reply and the mad detail you went to to help :)


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[NCGreasemonkey]

And KFJ talked me into switching to the Rotella, also. I had a start-up lifter tick and some oil burning issues. Almost 3000 miles since using T-5 10W-30 for the first time and she smokes less and most of the ticking is gone. Only happens when the engine stops on a certain valve under pressure from the cam lobe.

My thanks to KFJ and GM2K for smacking me on the nose with a paper. I just had not tried the Rotella. And I knew about it. But came over from NASIOC where most running it were ubber-boosted STIs and Rexes. You learn something... Thanks!

[kung fu jesus]

No, not really. Probably the biggest help, tool-wise, is that little telescoping magnet. I used it to pull the HLAs from the galleys in the head and then again to move and gather the little parts upon disassembly.

I'm a huge fan of minimal downtime while making repairs on my cars, so it may be more comfortable to you to buy a used set of HLAs cheap and refurb them on your own schedule. As long as they have a coating of oil and are kept sealed, they store for a long time.

Head work and valvetrains are really a lot of repetitious operations. Nothing difficult, but it can be satisfying because of the detail work required.

I thought of something else that may be worth trying, it involves no disassembly. You can do a "2Twisty Flush", or more commonly known as an ATF flush. ATF is automatic transmission fluid.

It involves two oil changes.

Drain your current oil and change your filter. Instead of adding 4 quarts of oil, you will add 3 quarts of ATF and 1 quart of 20w50.

Let the car idle (do NOT drive it) for an hour. Some say two hours.

Drain, replace filter.

Some say to flush out this mixture with a gallon of kerosene, but I think just giving it time to drain completely has worked fine for me.

Add 4 qts of fresh oil.

I have had decent success on another Miata doing this flush. ATF is very thin and contains a lot of detergents, which can remove oil grunge and varnish inside an engine and gummy HLAs.

It will take about 2 hours to do this flush and may help correct your noisy lifters without extensive disassembly.

Good luck!

[Aki yuno]

No, not really. Probably the biggest help, tool-wise, is that little telescoping magnet. I used it to pull the HLAs from the galleys in the head and then again to move and gather the little parts upon disassembly.

I'm a huge fan of minimal downtime while making repairs on my cars, so it may be more comfortable to you to buy a used set of HLAs cheap and refurb them on your own schedule. As long as they have a coating of oil and are kept sealed, they store for a long time.

Head work and valvetrains are really a lot of repetitious operations. Nothing difficult, but it can be satisfying because of the detail work required.

I thought of something else that may be worth trying, it involves no disassembly. You can do a "2Twisty Flush", or more commonly known as an ATF flush. ATF is automatic transmission fluid.

It involves two oil changes.

Drain your current oil and change your filter. Instead of adding 4 quarts of oil, you will add 3 quarts of ATF and 1 quart of 20w50.

Let the car idle (do NOT drive it) for an hour. Some say two hours.

Drain, replace filter.

Some say to flush out this mixture with a gallon of kerosene, but I think just giving it time to drain completely has worked fine for me.

Add 4 qts of fresh oil.

I have had decent success on another Miata doing this flush. ATF is very thin and contains a lot of detergents, which can remove oil grunge and varnish inside an engine and gummy HLAs.

It will take about 2 hours to do this flush and may help correct your noisy lifters without extensive disassembly.

Good luck!

I'm actually going to do the lifter disassembly option. I have to replace the timing belt anyway as I'm not aware when the previous timing belt replacement took place, if ever. I figure, if I'm at that point in the disassembly, what's a small step further :)

What would your average span on a timing belt be?


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[kung fu jesus]

Average span is about 100k miles, but I generally change them more frequently because of what I do with my Miata. I'm personally a huge advocate of "resetting" the maintenance on a Miata with an unknown maintenance history; timing belt, water pump, idler pulleys, cam seals, crank seal, woodruff key, crank pullet bolt, valve cover gasket, PCV valve, CAS O-ring, spark plugs, wires, ALL the coolant hoses (including the heater hoses and little throttle body hoses), t-stat, coolant flush, brake fluid flush, clutch hydraulic flush, transmission oil change, differential oil change, fuel filter change, air filter change, vacuum hose replacement, coolant nipple replacement.

I know, I know, it's a lot of work, but it eliminates so_many questions and doubts, especially if you have issues crop up later. I see a lot of well-maintained Miatas that are over 20 years old, but not all the maintenance was even or performed. Some of that in the first paragraph is preventative, mostly peace of mind, but it is also a bit of a wish list that should take priority over modifications.

[Aki yuno]

Average span is about 100k miles, but I generally change them more frequently because of what I do with my Miata. I'm personally a huge advocate of "resetting" the maintenance on a Miata with an unknown maintenance history; timing belt, water pump, idler pulleys, cam seals, crank seal, woodruff key, crank pullet bolt, valve cover gasket, PCV valve, CAS O-ring, spark plugs, wires, ALL the coolant hoses (including the heater hoses and little throttle body hoses), t-stat, coolant flush, brake fluid flush, clutch hydraulic flush, transmission oil change, differential oil change, fuel filter change, air filter change, vacuum hose replacement, coolant nipple replacement.

I know, I know, it's a lot of work, but it eliminates so_many questions and doubts, especially if you have issues crop up later. I see a lot of well-maintained Miatas that are over 20 years old, but not all the maintenance was even or performed. Some of that in the first paragraph is preventative, mostly peace of mind, but it is also a bit of a wish list that should take priority over modifications.

Wow!!! I'm a newbie then!! I didn't even know half of these were issues. Are all of these jobs harder jobs or is this all small but many jobs?


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[kung fu jesus]

Not really issues, until they are. So, what I've seen over the years are people doing good maintenance on their Miatas, but they might take a few shortcuts here and there to save money, time, or just don't know better. I'm talking about stuff like changing the water pump every other timing belt change, skipping on the seals, ancillary coolant hoses, CAS rings, etc. This is basically the "if it isn't broken, don't fix it" philosophy. That's all fine and good, honestly. However, sometimes skipping on some of those smaller pieces while "you're in there" can leave you stranded and now you have to remove a lot of the same stuff all over again, just to fix a $2 seal you thought would be good until the next belt change. The other concern is that these cars are getting up there in years. While the mileage may be relatively low, age and time can degrade those same seals, parts, and hoses.

All I'm saying is that by resetting the maintenance, you start with a known reference point to enjoy your car by staying ahead of potential issues proactively. :)

[Aki yuno]

Not really issues, until they are. So, what I've seen over the years are people doing good maintenance on their Miatas, but they might take a few shortcuts here and there to save money, time, or just don't know better. I'm talking about stuff like changing the water pump every other timing belt change, skipping on the seals, ancillary coolant hoses, CAS rings, etc. This is basically the "if it isn't broken, don't fix it" philosophy. That's all fine and good, honestly. However, sometimes skipping on some of those smaller pieces while "you're in there" can leave you stranded and now you have to remove a lot of the same stuff all over again, just to fix a $2 seal you thought would be good until the next belt change. The other concern is that these cars are getting up there in years. While the mileage may be relatively low, age and time can degrade those same seals, parts, and hoses.

All I'm saying is that by resetting the maintenance, you start with a known reference point to enjoy your car by staying ahead of potential issues proactively. :)

The like of cam seals, crank seals, can they be done while doing the timing belt? I also am going to sound like a true noob but what is a woodruff key?


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[kung fu jesus]

yes, all of that stuff can be done during a timing belt change. it can extend the length of the job, but it's the easiest time to do it.

[Aki yuno]

yes, all of that stuff can be done during a timing belt change. it can extend the length of the job, but it's the easiest time to do it.

Thank you very much for your insight and wisdom!


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[NCGreasemonkey]

The woodruff key is the do-hickey that holds the timing gear and crank pulley in place on the crank nose.

[Aki yuno]

Enjoy my guttural upper Midwestern accent while I describe an HLA refurb:

Part 1

https://youtu.be/gSwmsGG_2sQ

Part 2

https://youtu.be/b5M-Hg27usY

There are other tutorial videos and write ups out there. It's easiest to do this when doing a timing belt service because you have to remove the cams, cam gears, etc, anyways. The HLA refurb will take about 2 hours working at an even pace. This is not including disassembling the cams, or reinstallation.

Sorry to bother you again, when putting the lifters back in, did you need to check clearance on them and the cam shaft? I just wanted to make sure I didn't bigger anything putting it all back together!


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[NCGreasemonkey]

No. That is the point of the hydraulic lifters. They close the gap with oil pressure and when they are sticking or clogged you get the tick because there is a gap.

Don't take my answer as bothered or short. If I was a people person and could talk to comfort I wouldn't be a mechanical minded person. The female side of my family is in Social Services. I is wrench turner, ug! Humans bad!

[Aki yuno]

No. That is the point of the hydraulic lifters. They close the gap with oil pressure and when they are sticking or clogged you get the tick because the is a gap.

Don't take my answer as bothered or short. If I was a people person and could talk to comfort I wouldn't be a mechanical minded person. The female side of my family is a Social Services. I wrench turner, ug!

I didn't mean that your responses were bothered, I just didn't want to seem the noob pestering the knowledgable oracle. I'm a little new to fully fledged mechanical repairs as I'm a hobbyist and not a trained mechanic..... Yet. Thanks for you reply and your very well detailed explanations. :)


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[NCGreasemonkey]

Oh it was not about you. I wanted you to know that I don't do people well. I know part numbers from decades ago. But, unless you and myself are on my back porch drinking a beer I can come over harsh. I was forewarning you not to worry about my tone.

Peace fellow nut,
Rick :cheers: