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View Full Version : Built 1.8L Options: 99-00 Vs. '01+ VVT



MLambert19
11-02-2017, 12:06 PM
Having tried the turbo car (see my 1991 SE for sale - shameless plug) I'm hoping to build a motor for my 1994. I realize that a turbo would yield even greater results on the '94's 1.8, but something about the allure of all-motor and ITB's has piqued my interest (this was also my original plan for the '91's 1.6).

My plan is roughly as follows:
99-00 complete longblock or '01+ longblock.
11.0:1 55mm SuperTech Pistons and Wiseco rings from 949 w/ Carillo A-beam rods.
Maruha Camshafts (252/256 F Cam for VVT or 264's for non).
Borla 45mm ITB's (Formerly TWM).
ATI Damper, ACL Bearings, ARP Studs, OEM Gaskets and seals, etc.
Bosch EV? Injectors
MS3
Some undetermined header, high flow cat, catback.
Find competent shop to do headwork and assemble.

Following the multiple posts from Emilio at 949 and Quinn in CT, among others, I think either setup is good for roughly 180whp. My question is, given the slight differences in cost between engines, and the difference in cost of the Maruha Cams, am I better off with or without VVT? I think the 252/256 setup sounds more streetable, but would also be more complicated to tune and more involved with regards to wiring and setup (although Maruha also sells a $300 VVT harness that looks pretty plug & play).

Did I miss anything major? Thoughts, advice?

Thanks, -Matt

Phatmiata
11-02-2017, 12:44 PM
you'll likely spend more money for IRTB and get less HP per $, however there is nothing sexier than the sounds of that all motor IRTB, my .02 cents

MLambert19
11-02-2017, 01:11 PM
Randy, That's why I ended up with a turbo on the '91! I agree, per dollar, the turbo has higher yields.

I'm looking for input on VVT and camshafts, mainly. I know I've also left out a few things here... valve springs, shim-under-bucket setups, oversize valves, headgaskets.

HarryB
11-02-2017, 02:07 PM
RustRat could chime in as he prepares something very similar. Regarding injectors, OEM would suffice for that levels of power; however if you want to get newer tech look at EV14s. Flowforce makes a nice, reasonably priced PnP kit, including injectors. They also carry "conversion parts" if you want to put it together yourself using 2013-14 Ford Mustang GT500 injectors.

http://www.flowforceinjectors.com/products/pnp-kit-for-mazda

Second option will end up slightly cheaper. GT500 injectors are almost perfectly designed for the Miata head as it regards spray cones. Of course same holds true for the FF kit, since what they use IS GT500 injectors, albeit flow matched even closer than what Bosch does.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=39o0o_PtDOw

RustRat
11-02-2017, 02:28 PM
Preparig something very similar, and opted for the 01-04 VVT engine, mainly for the higher compression ratio, higher flow oil pump and, well, I got it cheap.

I have already taken it apart, and started rebuilding it. Everything that follows is my personal opinion, from sources I have read and I do not push anyone to follow what I do.

Slightly Ported and Polished head
Shaved head (I haven’t decided on the amount yet, aiming for a CR of 11-11.5:1)
3 angle valve job
Supertech valve springs and retainers
278 cams from an english company I can’t remember its name now.
Jenvey ITBs and 1.8 adapter
RS*R 4-2-1 header
That’s for the head.

About the block now:
Stock 01-04 pistons
Ebay rods (some of them are really good quality, and are good enough for my needs)
King Racing or ACL bearings
The usual ARP hardware everywhere
Billet oil pump gear in the stock oil pump
ATi Damper
9-10lbs flywheel
And balancing of the whole rotating assembly.

My aim is a revlimiter of 7.8-8K RPM.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

DarylSibcy
11-02-2017, 04:00 PM
Skunk2 have just released a scratch made intake manifold. I don't think anyone has even installed one of those on a miata yet, there's nothing documented as of yet anyway....

Should show some promise, it does away with all the restrictive stuff and puts a big (albeit) single throttle body in front of a new manifold with indivdual runners. :D

Personally if it were me, I'd try the Hydra. I'm currently using an MSII system and I'd rate it 5/10, it doesn't like cold starts, idling or figuring out what to do with the electrical loads. Could just be my system needing tweaks or a new alternator. :?

I'm currently most of the way through with what I want to do to the engine, most of it has been systematic and trial and error though, I haven't had a list laid out from the start, the list has changed as I've changed a few things and then driven the car to see how it feels. I'm building up an earlier model 1.6 though, so the engines will want to behave differently anyway :lol:

HarryB
11-02-2017, 04:57 PM
MS3 is way better than MS2. Both are considered better than a Hydra and with more community support. Sometimes, issues like the ones you described can be traced to tuning rather than hardware. OEM does a pretty decent job in these aspects, mostly because Mazda had the resources to support a bunch of calibration engineers fiddling around in all possible conditions.

As it regards Skunk2, here are some data from 949 Racing. Tested on a "forged, blueprinted but otherwise stock NB2, header, CAI, MS2, pump gas." This is JDM/EUDM squaretop vs. Skunk2.

https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.miataturbo.net-vbulletin/1024x505/80-s2_nb2_ca91_details_8ee4766b1b715e468d355ebe0cec42 6190c685f9.jpg

"First of several test we plan to run. These runs about an hour apart.

Optimum spark table didn't change at all. VVT table changed quite a bit but resulted in about the same power. Square top obviously wanted less fuel past 7k.

Ran out of time on dyno today so we didn't try the spacers. We'll go back next week and do that. As expected, a bit more power on top with the S2, no significant gains in midrange.
What is key to note for folks who set their redline at 7000 (stock redline) is that there are no gains below that."

Eitherway, the OP mentioned ITB's and I think we universally agree that ITBs>anything! :P

DarylSibcy
11-02-2017, 05:10 PM
MS3 is way better than MS2. Both are considered better than a Hydra and with more community support. Sometimes, issues like the ones you described can be traced to tuning rather than hardware. OEM does a pretty decent job in these aspects, mostly because Mazda had the resources to support a bunch of calibration engineers fiddling around in all possible conditions.

As it regards Skunk2, here are some data from 949 Racing. Tested on a "forged, blueprinted but otherwise stock NB2, header, CAI, MS2, pump gas." This is JDM/EUDM squaretop vs. Skunk2.

https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.miataturbo.net-vbulletin/1024x505/80-s2_nb2_ca91_details_8ee4766b1b715e468d355ebe0cec42 6190c685f9.jpg

"First of several test we plan to run. These runs about an hour apart.

Optimum spark table didn't change at all. VVT table changed quite a bit but resulted in about the same power. Square top obviously wanted less fuel past 7k.

Ran out of time on dyno today so we didn't try the spacers. We'll go back next week and do that. As expected, a bit more power on top with the S2, no significant gains in midrange.
What is key to note for folks who set their redline at 7000 (stock redline) is that there are no gains below that."

Eitherway, the OP mentioned ITB's and I think we universally agree that ITBs>anything! :P

I stand corrected, it's been documented.... :lol:

I can vouch for the ITBs, nobody would regret them, the throttle response is to die for.... :frantic: :lol:

MLambert19
11-02-2017, 10:13 PM
RustRat: Thank you! I hadn't considered the oil pump improvement, nor did I realize you could upgrade a stock one with billet gears... that might be a big cost savings.

278 Cams sound WAY aggressive. I know lots of success with 264's, but I really wonder how the idle will be with 278's!?

As far as intake manifold/TB goes: I may start with the stock units in place to get things running, just to take this in steps. That said, the only throttle body/manifold options I'd be springing money on would be a JDM Squaretop if I buy a 99-00 motor, which I would then sell to help fund ITB's. That is something I've considered, recouping money on a squaretop and cam from a BP5a motor.

I also wonder whether it's more cost effective to do the head shave VS. just buying higher compression pistons, and what dynamics change with each. Valve relief any different on the SuperTech's compared to OE, etc?

Thanks, -Matt

HarryB
11-03-2017, 02:53 AM
Matt, the only motors coming with the square top are the later 01-05 VVT ones.

DarylSibcy
11-03-2017, 03:16 AM
+1 to the billet oil pump :8): crazy sh*t goes on above 6k~ rpm, FM sell one that's apparently 15x stronger than stock, $200 seems like a steal considering.

I remember reading somewhere that the load on the rods doubles between 6k to 8k rpm, if you upgrade the oil pump definitely get a better harmonic dampener, especially if you're gonna rev it...


I also wonder whether it's more cost effective to do the head shave VS. just buying higher compression pistons, and what dynamics change with each. Valve relief any different on the SuperTech's compared to OE, etc?


This somewhat ties in with the above, but it depends if you're gonna rev the snot out of it, my 1.6 happily revs up to 7500, but I do worry about the stock rods coping at that height. I've bought the lightest set of forged Carillo's I can and intend on installing them soon, considering doing the pistons at the same time. I bought a "tuning package" by a U.K. company called BLiNKMotorsport, I did have to travel the car a distance to fit it though. They shaved, ported and polished the cylinder head for a pretty decent price (as well as other fancy things as part of the package), but they won't/can't tell me how much they've shaved off or tell me what the compression ratio now is, without a compression test is guess work.

Short answer?? Since you've not messed with the CR yet I'd say forged pistons are the way to go, you know exactly what CR you're running (and they're heat treated/coated in fancy shiz to make them last longer :fab). You can install forged rods whilst you're in there too, or vice-versa. New pistons give you the option to up the displacement too, you can get 90% of the way to 2.0L with fat pistons alone. :winky:

There's always a debate on alloy differences, but I do believe there is something in having a closer wall clearance than people would have you believe. If you're never gonna boost it, 4032 all the way. Emilio (949Racing for those who don't know) knows his stuff and builds that sh*t to last :lol:

I would love to see a Stroker build happen ere though :fab: :D *hint hint hint hint* :lol:

*Edit*
Cams make the biggest difference on these engines. Intake and Exhaust improvements help the engine breathe, but it's the cams that essentially "add" most of the power. More lift increases power everywhere, duration moves the curve up or down the chart. This can be proven with 949Racing stating that the BP5 intake cam on an otherwise stock BP4 engine adds 6hp, mostly from the lift, duration is too similar to make a drastic change.

There's nothing stopping you getting a custom intake cam fabbed up with an extremely high lift (10+mm) and a modest duration (250/256), it shiuld still want to idle and rev like it should :D :lol:

Apologies on the length of the now new post :lol:

RustRat
11-03-2017, 03:32 AM
The only reason I went for OEM pistons is that all forged aftermarket ones start at +0.5mm oversize, and did’t want to get involved with the block too.


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DarylSibcy
11-03-2017, 04:26 AM
The only reason I went for OEM pistons is that all forged aftermarket ones start at +0.5mm oversize, and did’t want to get involved with the block too.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Flyin' Miata take custom orders for Wiseco pistons, i.e. they will make pistons for the stock 78mm bore if requested. I'll be honest though, I'm not sure if you'd need to still slightly bore the block out to accommodate a different alloy for cylinder wall clearances, FM will be able to clear that one up.

I've asked Keith Tanner in the past if I could get 11.0:1 CR 4032 Wiseco's in stock bore for racing class purposes (any larger than 1600cc and I'd be against 1.8's and 2.0L's), apparently they wouldn't cost any more to make.

HarryB
11-03-2017, 06:17 AM
Well, power in NA form comes from 3 areas; higher CR, higher revs, better engine breathing.

The 1st one is pretty straightforward; however one needs to pay attention in differences between static and dynamic CR.

Higher revving is an interesting topic. There's a limit imposed by the physical design of the engine, including choices in the head department (breathing, valve floating issues). Of course, the lightest the better (as long as everything is properly balanced), because the inertia and thus the loads in the reciprocating masses will be less. Faster throttle response is a bonus. However; higher revs means more friction, which steals power. And there's a point of diminishing returns. That being said, pistons make sense if lighter for a high-revving NA engine. I would agree on alloy of choice, especially in a car that gets driven often. Please keep in mind that pistons and rods should be designed differently between NA and boosted applications. Tensile strength is much more relevant than buckling to an NA rod.

Engine breathing... well in general more lift does make more power, but more lift with similar duration means more aggressive cam profile, thus higher valve acceleration. When combined with high RPMs, your valvetrain would have a hard time coping. At the same time, increased redline calls for more duration. One should take into account air mass inertia and scavenging phenomena when selecting cam profiles. And yes, VVT is always a benefit.

kung fu jesus
11-04-2017, 11:53 AM
Preparig something very similar, and opted for the 01-04 VVT engine, mainly for the higher compression ratio, higher flow oil pump and, well, I got it cheap.

I have already taken it apart, and started rebuilding it. Everything that follows is my personal opinion, from sources I have read and I do not push anyone to follow what I do.

Slightly Ported and Polished head
Shaved head (I haven’t decided on the amount yet, aiming for a CR of 11-11.5:1)
3 angle valve job
Supertech valve springs and retainers
278 cams from an english company I can’t remember its name now.
Jenvey ITBs and 1.8 adapter
RS*R 4-2-1 header
That’s for the head.

About the block now:
Stock 01-04 pistons
Ebay rods (some of them are really good quality, and are good enough for my needs)
King Racing or ACL bearings
The usual ARP hardware everywhere
Billet oil pump gear in the stock oil pump
ATi Damper
9-10lbs flywheel
And balancing of the whole rotating assembly.

My aim is a revlimiter of 7.8-8K RPM.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

That's a solid goal and I like the approach.

So, if the 01 block has the 10:1 pistons and you want to reach 11:1 through a head shave, that's about .040". I believe it's doable, but you might be bumping into the valve should the timing belt break. General ROT is 1/4 point compression bump per .010" shave. Reaching 11.5 seems like a stretch, depends on your level of comfort. I would also want to know how much the rods stretch at the increased RPMs to factor that in too.



I bought a "tuning package" by a U.K. company called BLiNKMotorsport, I did have to travel the car a distance to fit it though. They shaved, ported and polished the cylinder head for a pretty decent price (as well as other fancy things as part of the package), but they won't/can't tell me how much they've shaved off or tell me what the compression ratio now is, without a compression test is guess work.

Short answer?? Since you've not messed with the CR yet I'd say forged pistons are the way to go, you know exactly what CR you're running (and they're heat treated/coated in fancy shiz to make them last longer :fab). You can install forged rods whilst you're in there too, or vice-versa. New pistons give you the option to up the displacement too, you can get 90% of the way to 2.0L with fat pistons alone. :winky:

There's always a debate on alloy differences, but I do believe there is something in having a closer wall clearance than people would have you believe. If you're never gonna boost it, 4032 all the way. Emilio (949Racing for those who don't know) knows his stuff and builds that sh*t to last :lol:

I would love to see a Stroker build happen ere though :fab: [emoji3] *hint hint hint hint* :lol:



There's a bit to unpack here but here are some key points...

I would be very pissed off if I paid a company money to do headwork and they didn't give me specs of their job. You should be dubious of the results.

Emilio builds his engines for specific purpose and goals, so realize there are longevity tradeoffs for certain enhancements. A race engine built to stay between 5-8k Rpms will make power, but it isn't expected to last long (hours versus miles). A street engine built to rev to 8k that spends the majority of it's time at 1000-5000 rpms, with occasional peaks to 8k, there's a tradeoff. If the engine sees peak power later, and is modified to do so where numbers are lower at the spectrum it spends most of its time, where's the advantage?

I defer to Harry's comments on the pistons. The stroker build was already done:

http://mazdaroadster.net/showthread.php?5013-2-0L-Miata-Stroker-build

http://mazdaroadster.net/showthread.php?5416-Checking-in-from-Tokyo&highlight=stroker&p=137777#post137777

$26k, MTYCAP.



Well, power in NA form comes from 3 areas; higher CR, higher revs, better engine breathing.

The 1st one is pretty straightforward; however one needs to pay attention in differences between static and dynamic CR.

Higher revving is an interesting topic. There's a limit imposed by the physical design of the engine, including choices in the head department (breathing, valve floating issues). Of course, the lightest the better (as long as everything is properly balanced), because the inertia and thus the loads in the reciprocating masses will be less. Faster throttle response is a bonus. However; higher revs means more friction, which steals power. And there's a point of diminishing returns. That being said, pistons make sense if lighter for a high-revving NA engine. I would agree on alloy of choice, especially in a car that gets driven often. Please keep in mind that pistons and rods should be designed differently between NA and boosted applications. Tensile strength is much more relevant than buckling to an NA rod.

Engine breathing... well in general more lift does make more power, but more lift with similar duration means more aggressive cam profile, thus higher valve acceleration. When combined with high RPMs, your valvetrain would have a hard time coping. At the same time, increased redline calls for more duration. One should take into account air mass inertia and scavenging phenomena when selecting cam profiles. And yes, VVT is always a benefit.

Harry is wise.

RustRat
11-04-2017, 01:51 PM
Was waiting for your input in this thread. Thanks for the info, two of the things I am still debating are cam specs, and how much to shave off the head.

To be honest, even a 10.5:1 is plenty enough for my hp goals. Will do more research before start chopping stuff from the engine.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Hyper
11-04-2017, 04:52 PM
The only thing I will get from the 01-05 VVT block is the cylinder head valve cover components and oil pan with corresponding main bearing support plate.

Then build a high compression engine with a 94.5-95 block or Mazdaspeed block

http://mazdaroadster.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=17300&d=15031534444

HarryB
11-04-2017, 06:46 PM
What are the differences between blocks?

Hyper
11-04-2017, 08:20 PM
If you want to turbo the 94.5-95 or mazdaspeed block you have a coolant and oil source already built in under the exhaust manifold