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View Full Version : Turbo Kits: DIY or Pre-made?



psulja
07-31-2012, 09:13 PM
I'm just beginning my research on boosting my NA. I plan to start ordering everything when I get back from working up north at the end of the summer as a gift to myself.

I'm just wondering what everybody's opinions are on this topic. If you were going to boost an NA6 would you buy a pre-made kit such as the FMII or build your own kit?

I know a lot depends on personal preference or what resources you have readily available to you but I was just looking for people's opinions, whether it be from past experiences going either direction or from what you have come across in your research getting ready for boost.

Let's say the budget is between $4-5k with a bit of wiggle room either way.

I<3flippyheadlights
07-31-2012, 09:44 PM
I think you should answer these questions first.
- What is your power goal?
- why? Have you sat in other Miatas with that power level?
- How much experience do you have with boosting cars?
- Do you want to spend more and get less headache or spend less and get a little more creative?
- Do you plan on running a stand alone ECU?

Once these are figured out it makes it a bit more clear. My boost goals are about 150 whp with little tuning. This leaves me with a lot of room for improvement but I don't have to drastically change my car. I have no idea what I'm doing so I'll probably go with a kit that has everything. Its what people reccomend anyway when first boosting a car. But maybe you want more, you want 200 horses. Now you have to think about more then the boost, you have to think about what the boost does to the car. No longer will the stock clutch hold, stock tires, etc. There are a lot of aspects to boost and it can be scary. Hell, I'm still trying to make my car stable enough to boost it without blowing a hole in the side of the block. You are a smart guy and you have the funds, I think you will be fine after figuring out what you want.

I also think you should read the book maximum boost by Corkey Bell. Excellent book and gives you a good understanding of boosting a car with a turbo. (basic understanding at least.)

psulja
07-31-2012, 10:31 PM
Great response. Here are my answers to your questions.

My power goal to start out is around 180whp +/- 10, after that I would like to up the boost while trying to keep things reliable. I also do not want to cheap out, I want to do it once and do it right and would like the turbo setup to produce the power I would like reliably.

The only other boosted Miata I have driven was a friend's that is 800km away. He had an older FM kit and was pushing around 220whp estimated. I loved that power level but at the same time I was not comfortable enough to push the car at that power level. I am very comfortable throwing my NB around corners pushing it to the limits and would like to start with a reasonable power level to get acquainted with more power in my NA before going for higher levels.

I have a bit of experience with turbo'ing cars. I pretty well helped my sister's boyfriend with his entire build on his Mazdaspeed Protege doing a lot of the work and planning it out since he was not mechanically inclined at all and was upgrading to a disco potato. I understand most of the components that go into a turbo build but at the same time do still have some more reading to do.

I have a local guy that owns a mandrel bending company and has done multiple high horsepower turbo builds that I would have do all the bending of the IC and exhaust if I went DIY. Even though I know him pretty well this does not mean I would be getting any discounts on the work and it would still be pretty expensive since it is top notch work.

I have not decided on standalone or piggyback quite yet but am leaning more towards standalone.

I have a general plan set out right now. Order all of the turbo components and get them installed on the car over winter. Get the car running properly before driving it next spring. It already needs a clutch so I will do that before the car comes on the road next spring. I would buy my clutch and better brakes (possibly coils too) around tax return season.

I will also be using the wheels from my NB with the brand new StarSpecs on there.

concealer404
07-31-2012, 11:00 PM
I would vote for a DIY, depending on which kits you're looking at. As the owner of a car with a "kit" on it, there are many many MANY things i would have done differently, and there's no way i would have spent the money for this kit if i had started with a stock car. As it was, it was just a nice "bonus" that happened to be on the car when it was purchased.

Piecing together a kit makes you learn, lets you be more familiar with your car, usually saves you money, and gives you a sense of satisfaction in "Hey, i did this myself."

And more often than not, it's probably faster and/or more efficient. :lol:

BIG vote for DIY here.

psulja
07-31-2012, 11:10 PM
Piecing together a kit makes you learn, lets you be more familiar with your car, usually saves you money, and gives you a sense of satisfaction in "Hey, i did this myself."

That's a really good point. I'm always about getting all my work done by myself so this might be a big deciding factor. I am always up for learning more and getting really well acquainted with my car.

I think if I did it DIY I would order an MS before I get back home so it is ready for me. Get that installed on the car before throwing boost at it and put insurance on the car and drive it for a couple months to make sure it is running well with the MS, then over the winter find all the parts and start installing the turbo.

I<3flippyheadlights
07-31-2012, 11:17 PM
I would vote for a DIY, depending on which kits you're looking at. As the owner of a car with a "kit" on it, there are many many MANY things i would have done differently, and there's no way i would have spent the money for this kit if i had started with a stock car. As it was, it was just a nice "bonus" that happened to be on the car when it was purchased.

Piecing together a kit makes you learn, lets you be more familiar with your car, usually saves you money, and gives you a sense of satisfaction in "Hey, i did this myself."

And more often than not, it's probably faster and/or more efficient. :lol:

BIG vote for DIY here.

See I'm the opposite, but I'm also mentally handicapped when it comes to things like this.

Now if you want to build for 180 but more this is what I would recommend. Have the boost at 180, but build for 220. So if you ever decide to turn it up you can do it without worry.

Also, you are gonna need a standalone. Anything past 6-7 psi is tough to do on the stock ecu with band aids. (Totally possible, just tough. I'm also totally up for band aids)

If you are gonna DIY, which I think you are capable of, just buy the important pieces from a good dealer. Begi, FM, etc. You can get a turbo, manifold, and DP from them. Then buy the piping, intercooler, oil lines etc from other places.

I<3flippyheadlights
07-31-2012, 11:18 PM
That's a really good point. I'm always about getting all my work done by myself so this might be a big deciding factor. I am always up for learning more and getting really well acquainted with my car.

I think if I did it DIY I would order an MS before I get back home so it is ready for me. Get that installed on the car before throwing boost at it and put insurance on the car and drive it for a couple months to make sure it is running well with the MS, then over the winter find all the parts and start installing the turbo.

If you are tuning it yourself, learn to tune before you boost. At least thats what everyone says. I wouldn't know, I'm all about the band aids :P

concealer404
07-31-2012, 11:20 PM
That's a really good point. I'm always about getting all my work done by myself so this might be a big deciding factor. I am always up for learning more and getting really well acquainted with my car.

I think if I did it DIY I would order an MS before I get back home so it is ready for me. Get that installed on the car before throwing boost at it and put insurance on the car and drive it for a couple months to make sure it is running well with the MS, then over the winter find all the parts and start installing the turbo.

You can take that route if you want with the MS, but it's not something i'd worry about in this day and age with the PNP kits. None of your n/a tune will carry over to the turbo tune anyways. :)

For what it's worth, i honestly find boost tuning easier, especially when trying to just go faster. It's that last 1-2whp that makes a tune hard to do. Such huge gains are made with a turbo setup that you find yourself not worrying about that last 1-2whp, and you end up with a nice safe tune that still gives you that shit-eating grin.

Also: Absurdflow, Artech. I also like the Begi S6 kit, which is just a turbo, manifold, and downpipe.

psulja
07-31-2012, 11:36 PM
You can take that route if you want with the MS, but it's not something i'd worry about in this day and age with the PNP kits. None of your n/a tune will carry over to the turbo tune anyways. :)

For what it's worth, i honestly find boost tuning easier, especially when trying to just go faster. It's that last 1-2whp that makes a tune hard to do. Such huge gains are made with a turbo setup that you find yourself not worrying about that last 1-2whp, and you end up with a nice safe tune that still gives you that shit-eating grin.

Also: Absurdflow, Artech. I also like the Begi S6 kit, which is just a turbo, manifold, and downpipe.

I think I would want to get some tuning under my belt before going for boost just so I have a general idea of how MS works.

I will be taking a look at all the options of DIY vs premade over the next little bit. I'm up here in the NWT for another month so have some time to do research when I'm not working.

Premade kits seem a lot easier but more expensive and not as fun in the building process. Since the car isn't a daily and is just sitting in the garage waiting for boost I'm not really in a hurry to get it done anyways. The soonest it'll be back on the road for a decent amount of time will be next spring, other than a couple months of tuning in the fall if I decide to go that route.

I<3flippyheadlights
07-31-2012, 11:50 PM
Another random thought. How is that 1.6l engine doing all these years later? If its not doing so well you might want to think about doing a 1.8l swap. When you do that you can upgrade to a 1.8 clutch and diff.

psulja
07-31-2012, 11:57 PM
Another random thought. How is that 1.6l engine doing all these years later? If its not doing so well you might want to think about doing a 1.8l swap. When you do that you can upgrade to a 1.8 clutch and diff.

My 1.6L seems to be running well with only 100,000miles on it but I haven't done any compression tests yet or checked it out in detail. I have played with the idea of going with a 1.8L, maybe even rebuilding the engine in my '99 and putting it in there but that would be a much bigger project and much more long term. Not sure I want to get into that kind of build with this car, but it is an idea that has been going through my head. That or a rotary ;)

I<3flippyheadlights
08-01-2012, 12:04 AM
If you plan on swapping the whole drive train, you can expect to spend around 1500 bucks, at least. I like the idea of turbo'ing a 1.6l and making it awesome. Do a compression test and see what happens. If you got a good amount of compression, turbo it. If its low, rebuild with better parts so you can safely go beyond 200 horse power.

iamdallas
08-01-2012, 12:14 AM
I can never find what the compression is supposed to be in these cars. I've heard a consistent 155-160psi is good... by that's all the info I can get.

I<3flippyheadlights
08-01-2012, 12:18 AM
I can never find what the compression is supposed to be in these cars. I've heard a consistent 155-160psi is good... by that's all the info I can get.

I got 180 across the board on mine. Am I fucked?

iamdallas
08-01-2012, 04:43 AM
I can't imagine any situation where you'd be fucked by slightly higher numbers. But I have no clue really.


For the OP. I'm in the process of going turbo. I paid $1100 for a manifold, t2560, down pipe, inter cooler, and piping. It was a good deal, I think.

But there are other things you need to think about.

Heat shielding
Injectors
Bovs/ wastegates that you may need
Machining costs
Seals.
Oil/coolant return and feed lines
Plugs and wires
Etc...

It all adds up. All in all, I should only have 2000-2500 into it. I'm buying as much used as possible. But that price is comprehensive, so make what you want of it. Just letting you know my experience.

atank
08-01-2012, 05:32 AM
I got 180 across the board on mine. Am I fucked?

Original new pressure on the 1.6 was 195, so you are difinitely good to go.

atank
08-01-2012, 05:35 AM
With my factory MSM, it needed to breath and expell for the best performance, and still retain reliability; so DIY would be the way to go......

kung fu jesus
08-01-2012, 06:46 AM
I have done both and Concealer is right, piecing together your own kit forces you to explore every aspect of the system and how you can improve upon it. In the end, you end up with something familiar, but a bit better, easier to diagnose and maintain.
Braided lines, hardlines for water, fueling upgrades and general "bulletproofing" of the ancillary systems can become an obsessive exercise in details, but you can say you did it yourself and wind up with a better, more reliable system.

The age of the motor shouldn't be as much of a concern as the health of the thing. 100k miles the engine is barely broken in. I actually think the b6 takes boost a *little* better than the BP because of it's original intent, cams and access points for oiling. Not to mention it's OBD1, 195 psi is stock compression results on the b6.

Blueiii
08-01-2012, 07:44 AM
Personally I'd prefer a kit, however that's because I've never turbo'd a car. (At this point, though, I would require a second miata, since Camber is my autocross car.) I'm slowly debating, should I get back to being employed soon, picking up a second car - a 94 or 95 with a torsen, and building it without worries about autocross rules or being competitive for a particular autocross class.

JonnyD
08-01-2012, 08:47 AM
I would imagine the FM kits are pretty good, they are a pretty meticulous shop. I'm guessing they take the time to make as much power as possible without causing reliability issues. I would like to boost my NB but I have a lot of other stuff I need to get fixed/modified on it before I take that step. So with that said if I went with a kit it would be from FM only.

concealer404
08-01-2012, 08:48 AM
With a 1.6, you might want to think about swapping to a stronger rear end and/or transmission as well.... so there's some added cost for you.

psulja
08-01-2012, 08:57 AM
I have thought about that a bit. Since it is not my daily I will get it running properly with the current diff. When that blows I'll upgrade it. Although if there is enough money left in the budget after finishing the turbo I could do it right away.

My sister's boyfriend has his gt2860rs (disco potato) from when he parted out his MSP build that I could get for $600. Maybe I'll base my build around that, but I'm worried it'll be too big for the 1.6l and cause lag issues. I'll look into the disco potato on a 1.6l tonight after work.

iamdallas
08-01-2012, 11:01 PM
I'd still like to know compression numbers for 1.8 motors. :)

iamdallas
08-01-2012, 11:08 PM
Finally found it.

182psi was stock. Anything above 128 is considered acceptable, with consistent #s across the board.

Phatmiata
08-01-2012, 11:15 PM
where is the poll option for, im pressed for time, i want instant Boost in a boxed kit! I want a happy meal too!

I think it really comes down to experience here, if you are super skilled then yes DIY, but the average guy will by a boxed it.

Phatmiata
08-01-2012, 11:18 PM
where is the poll option for, im pressed for time, i want instant Boost in a boxed kit! I want a happy meal too!

I think it really comes down to experience here, if you are super skilled then yes DIY, but the average guy will by a boxed it.

Im planning to get a FMii kit (provided I can stop buying other stuff I dont need)